Thought-Ripples
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Post by Thought-Ripples on Apr 27, 2013 23:34:18 GMT -5
Hey guys! I thought it'd be interesting to talk about the different philosophies we see in Trigun, especially since Nightow has done such a phenomenal job of fleshing out and discussing the different attitudes people take.
HEADS UP: Naturally, there will be a ton of SPOILERS in this thread, because I'm assuming people will have read all the manga, watched the whole anime, or both.
1. Which characters' philosophies stand out to you, and why? 2. What particular actions have these characters taken that show their worldview?
Obviously, Vash's pacifism is a huge topic - one might say the push for the whole series. One thing I was really struck by that was different between the anime and the manga was that Vash's Angel Arm actually killed people in the manga (where in the anime it only harmed property). This actually made his pacifism that much more intense and informed for me, since he knows he's caused huge destruction and loss of life (but not of his own will). This knowledge of his own power - and his choice to keep his power in check, to the point of being almost killed over and over - it's so much more intense.
What do you think?
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Post by fantardism on Apr 28, 2013 10:23:07 GMT -5
I tend to find pacifistic characters boring, but Vash is a huge exception to that rule because, unlike most of his fictional peers, he doesn't try to prevent bloodshed by sitting in a drum circle and thinking happy thoughts. Wolfwood may call it silly and hopelessly idealistic, but at the end of the day, saving lives on an individual basis is all a pacifist can realistically hope to accomplish. That's precisely what Vash does and that, I think, makes him a lot more pragmatic than people give him credit for.
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Jeredu
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Post by Jeredu on Apr 28, 2013 10:34:50 GMT -5
fantardism- that really does also lend some credibility to his character, because he knows that choosing to do nothing is still bad. He finds a way to protect people without sacrificing his ideals to do it. The only other character I can think of who uses this kind of proactive, aggressive pacifism approach is probably Kenshin. The rest of them just piss me off, like Yakumo from Shinzo. Admittedly, she's actually only about 9 years old in a 19 year old body, but she won't even let the protag DEFEND himself in a life threatening situation (that she, admittedly, might not have realized was life threatening). That's SELFISH Pacifism, where you force your ideal onto others without letting them have a say in the matter (she's actually holding his arms and not letting him fight back) Vash is very UNSELFISH with his philosophy. He doesn't force it onto anyone else (except maybe Wolfwood, and only with words!), and he readily throws himself in harm's way WITHOUT ever making pointless sacrifices. I think the fact that he desperately needs to stay ALIVE is part of what makes it work. He never acts like a martyr. He finds SOLUTIONS to the problems he's presented with, rather than offering himself up and hoping it turns out okay. Even if he DID injure more people when he does so, I think it's more that he's so realistic in his choices (except where being able to trust villains is concerned). He's lived long enough to understand the consequences. I think the best thing about Badlands Rumble (aside from the Wolfwood & Vash scenes) is the fact that the movie finally ADDRESSES the issue of Vash saving murderers and robbers, and the consequences of those actions. I'm probably quoting TV Tropes at some point, but Vash is a hero who would fit in perfectly in a more lighthearted shounen action series in an idealistic world- but he's thrust into a harsh, cynical world and the rest of the series basically pits his outlook vs a world where such an outlook shouldn't survive, and sees how long it takes to tear him to pieces. The fact that he manages to hold out is even more amazing to me.
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Post by Plant Feathers on Apr 28, 2013 11:46:39 GMT -5
A scene that always stands out to me in the manga is the one between Vash and Wolfwood, when they're recovering in the medical wing of the SEEDS ship after fighting Leonoff and Gray. Vash acknowledges that Wolfwood is killing his opponents, but sincerely thanks him for helping anyway. He's in a position where he has to pick his battles, and he wants Wolfwood as a friend and NEEDS him as an ally, so he makes the decision that he's going to have to turn a blind eye to what Wolfwood is doing. He's not going to change his own standards, and he's not going to be okay with Wolfwood killing, but he's going to let it go. I was always kinda proud of him for that.
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Post by fantardism on Apr 28, 2013 12:00:34 GMT -5
I think the fact that he desperately needs to stay ALIVE is part of what makes it work. He never acts like a martyr. He finds SOLUTIONS to the problems he's presented with, rather than offering himself up and hoping it turns out okay. YES! He's certainly no Jesus (thank god). And while I guess it can be argued that his anime incarnation is more naïve by comparison, manga!Vash definitely harbors no delusions about turning No Man's Land into a magical fairy tale place where everyone gets along and no one ever gets killed. IIRC, he even outright admits that his reasons for preventing killing mostly come down to a) Rem and b) soothing his guilt over July and not stopping the Great Fall.
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Jeredu
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Post by Jeredu on Apr 28, 2013 12:12:47 GMT -5
A scene that always stands out to me in the manga is the one between Vash and Wolfwood, when they're recovering in the medical wing of the SEEDS ship after fighting Leonoff and Gray. Vash acknowledges that Wolfwood is killing his opponents, but sincerely thanks him for helping anyway. He's in a position where he has to pick his battles, and he wants Wolfwood as a friend and NEEDS him as an ally, so he makes the decision that he's going to have to turn a blind eye to what Wolfwood is doing. He's not going to change his own standards, and he's not going to be okay with Wolfwood killing, but he's going to let it go. I was always kinda proud of him for that. Oh godddd, that scene. It's one of the moments that makes me go "Oh wow, this series really digs deep." It disguises itself as a dark, gritty, action/drama, but it's also an excellent deconstruction of the setting and characters. There's so much grey in this world. Vash may WISH that it was more clearly defined black and white, but he can't simplify it to that point, and he doesn't TRY. Another thing that really struck me about the manga (whereas I think this is ONE category where the anime misses the mark a bit) was the VILLAINS. It gets to the point where I wonder if Nightow sympathized more with Knives than with Vash at some point. With the exception of E.G. Mine, I think, every single Gung Ho Gun is at LEAST sympathetic enough that I could understand why they chose to follow Knives, if not outright make me like them. Hoppered the Gauntlet and Legato are outstanding examples of this, and Rai-Dei now that I've read his oneshot manga. While I can appreciate the more mysterious approach of the anime, that really only works for me if they plan on explaining things EVENTUALLY. The fact that most of the deeper, darker parts of the characters' backstories still seem to BE canon in the anime, but aren't explained, must be incredibly frustrating to anyone who hasn't gotten that far in the manga. I mean, Wolfwood is STILL only about.... 16 or 17 in the anime, if you listen carefully and note the times mentioned in episode 24. He doesn't seem to have a healing factor, and a few other aspects of his past have been changed, but still... And Legato's backstory is left out of the anime, which can be good OR bad. On the one hand, the reveal of his overwhelmingly sad past would somewhat ruin his title as "most fucked up and despicable villain in the anime" since introducing that sort of sympathy would just make everything even MORE depressing, since I had trouble bringing myself to hate him, and Vash killing him becomes overwhelmingly tragic, more than it already was! Knives is another story entirely. In the anime, I feel like the scope and scale is completely underwhelming. It's hard to remember that he's such a threat when Vash is the only good guy who knows what's at stake. In the MANGA, he's a global-approaching-interstellar crisis, and the threat he presents actually means that Vash finally gets some of the physical and moral support he really needs. While the anime doesn't drag Vash quite as far down into hell as the manga does, I would argue that anime!Vash is far worse-off than his manga counterpart, because he has NOBODY to support him besides Meryl and Milly, and he won't let them get close. In the manga, there's a network of people who KNOW the real Vash, fight alongside him, and know the stakes and what has to be done. Despite everyone Vash loses along the way, in the manga, I feel like his decision to keep living and believing in people is more understandable, when a good portion of No Man's Land actually returns those sentiments after his heartwarming, overwhelmingly awesome way of spreading a certain message across the entire planet: Love and PEACE
And he didn't even have to say it in those words. Everyone UNDERSTOOD him. And Knives, bless him, finally pulled his head out of his rear long enough to acknowledge that Vash actually had a point. It strikes me, as Karaii pointed out on tumblr, that Knives was the more optimistic and hopeful of the two as a child. He had such higher hopes and faith in humanity, so he fell that much FURTHER when those hopes were shattered by the reveal of Tessla. Knives is a creature of passion and emotions, and never stopped being that way. Vash is the cooler and more logical of the two, ironically enough. Pathos and Logos, much? Anyway, I've had a theory that the mask Vash puts on (and gradually became part of him), the friendly persona he generally hides behind, is modeled after a combination of how Rem and KNIVES behaved, when they were children, since they were the only role models (and frame of reference) he HAD. His emulation of Knives' friendly and optimistic attitude combined with Rem's passion, protectiveness, and forgiveness gradually became more exaggerated over time, as well as truly becoming a permanent facet of his heart. Vash was the most skeptical of humanity's acceptance of Plants, but he overcame that in the end. The brothers sort of swapped roles, in the end.
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Jeredu
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Post by Jeredu on Apr 28, 2013 12:26:01 GMT -5
I think the fact that he desperately needs to stay ALIVE is part of what makes it work. He never acts like a martyr. He finds SOLUTIONS to the problems he's presented with, rather than offering himself up and hoping it turns out okay. YES! He's certainly no Jesus (thank god). And while I guess it can be argued that his anime incarnation is more naïve by comparison, manga!Vash definitely harbors no delusions about turning No Man's Land into a magical fairy tale place where everyone gets along and no one ever gets killed. IIRC, he even outright admits that his reasons for preventing killing mostly come down to a) Rem and b) soothing his guilt over July and not stopping the Great Fall. I also think the fact that he DID kill everyone in July outright in the manga really frames Vash's actions as an atoner more believably. He acts like a guy who has so much blood on his hands he can never make up for it, and THAT'S why he dedicates his life to saving people, rather than an inherent need to be a pacifist. He gets close to killing SEVERAL times, and it's only thoughts of Rem that stay his hand. That's probably why he's so logical about it, too- he feels a duty or an obligation to adhere to Rem's ideals out of respect for the way she lived and died. He hates violence, and violence is actually probably a trigger for him, considering all the trauma he went through as a child (Tessla, stabbing Rem, trying to kill himself, seeing her die), and loss of life is usually the thing that makes him SNAP. Again, similar to Kenshin- he wants to make up for the blood on his hands, but that doesn't stop him from taking action and doing whatever is necessary to save lives. Vash makes it hard for himself by using an unmodified, LETHAL weapon as his favored firearm, but if anything, it makes me respect him more. He plays by the same rules as everyone else, with the same toys as everyone else, but he doesn't let them change who he is or what he believes in. In fact, I'd say the only people who got under Vash's skin and fundamentally CHANGED him were Rem and Wolfwood. Rem is a huge part of the person Vash became, and Wolfwood was the catalyst that unchained Vash and allowed him to fight with no reservations.
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Post by Sparrow on Apr 29, 2013 12:33:03 GMT -5
The fact that most of the deeper, darker parts of the characters' backstories still seem to BE canon in the anime, but aren't explained, must be incredibly frustrating to anyone who hasn't gotten that far in the manga. OT, but this sort of blew my mind once I finished the manga and went on to watch the anime again. There were so many things that just clicked neatly into place knowing what I knew now about the GHGs. What JesuOtaku said about certain aspects of the anime's storyline being "manga-contingent" is very true. The manga's fleshing out of the GHGs' backstories reveals why anime!Legato lets the slave girls live even if I feel that giving him a backstory at all takes away from him as a character, but that's entirely a discussion for another day, why anime!Hoppered the Gauntlet takes so much joy in terrorizing Vash and telling him what a destructive monster he is, and why anime!Midvalley constantly talks about Knives as a force that can't be opposed, as though he was pressed into Knives's service.
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Post by Plant Feathers on Apr 29, 2013 18:51:05 GMT -5
Getting back on topic a bit, Jeredu mentioned the return of Vash's catchphrase, "Love and Peace" during the climax. I absolutely loved how that phrase, and the blank ticket philosophy, made a comeback for the climax. It was almost like so much crazy (and often dark) stuff had happened since the last time we heard about any of that, that you kinda forget all about it, and then there it is in all it's glory for the climax. It's like, "Oh yes! THIS! THIS is what Trigun is all about!"
Vash's pacifism is a huge part of who he is and a huge part of the story itself, but personally, I feel like the blank ticket idea is probably the strongest theme throughout. The idea that people can change for the better is seen all over the place, sometimes on a small scale like Kaite, sometimes more dramatically like Wolfwood and Livio, and during the climax, on a sweeping scale with the feathers.
For me, it's one of the things about Trigun that somehow makes the story feel good, despite all the bad things that happen in it.
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Thought-Ripples
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Your ticket to the future is always blank.
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Post by Thought-Ripples on Apr 30, 2013 19:46:37 GMT -5
It gets to the point where I wonder if Nightow sympathized more with Knives than with Vash at some point. With the exception of E.G. Mine, I think, every single Gung Ho Gun is at LEAST sympathetic enough that I could understand why they chose to follow Knives, if not outright make me like them. Oh man, this. I think that this is what makes an excellent story - the fact that people do absolutely appalling things, things that would give me nightmares if they happened in the real world, and yet are so real and so human that they are relatable, even pitiable. I think the fact that we are removed from them makes it easier to relate to them and to feel for them. The real issue with having human, relatable characters is that their tragic stories do not excuse their behavior. You can like a character, even love them, but still absolutely abhor what they've done. I think that that's another facet of Vash's character too; as was mentioned earlier, he doesn't attack Wolfwood even though Wolfwood is killing people in self-defense. Those people are trying to kill them both, but Vash still holds back and only fights against those who are attacking him or the innocents around him. I think that this is because he cares for all the people, to an extent especially the villains. Vash is old. Vash is really old. You know how you feel when you see a child, and how you feel when you see that child grow up? Vash is 131 in the anime. Every single living person on the planet - with the exception of Knives - has been born since they arrived. What's it like to have the desire to be a big brother to the whole planet? To see your family - a family made up of those who survived incredible tragedy - KILL each other? Vash embodies that. He loves them all.
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Thought-Ripples
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Post by Thought-Ripples on Apr 30, 2013 19:59:46 GMT -5
Vash's pacifism is a huge part of who he is and a huge part of the story itself, but personally, I feel like the blank ticket idea is probably the strongest theme throughout. The idea that people can change for the better is seen all over the place, sometimes on a small scale like Kaite, sometimes more dramatically like Wolfwood and Livio, and during the climax, on a sweeping scale with the feathers. For me, it's one of the things about Trigun that somehow makes the story feel good, despite all the bad things that happen in it. I absolutely agree! For me the overarching message of Trigun is one of hope - that good things can happen, that people can work together, that those who do evil can choose to change. The idea that today is a day when you can choose to completely change who you are and what you do is one that is completely suffused with hope. I think that's why Rem is such a compelling character to me. In the anime I really liked her because of her courage, compassion, and enthusiasm. When I read the manga I had a new respect for her because she, too, made terrible mistakes. Rem was one of the people who experimented on Tessla. She was complicit in bringing about the death of an innocent new life. People often excuse past wrongdoing by choosing to perpetuate their actions in the future. Rem could have denied doing wrong in Tessla's case, and have treated Vash and Knives as "other than human" to preserve her own sense of self-worth. Instead, she admits her wrongdoing and becomes a mother figure to Vash and Knives, caring for them. In the manga, we see that she lives out the message she tells to Vash and Knives - she takes her blank ticket to the future and makes her life something beautiful. Her story is much more meaningful because she picks herself up after her failure - as Vash does, later. Through the series we see people doing good things - not out of nowhere, but always because of the people around them or those who came before them. There's an incredible sense of community and long-term impact, from the whole idea of Project Seeds to the very last moment when everyone supports Vash as he fights Knives. That's encouraging in its own way; to think that we are all part of something larger, and that what we do matters.
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Post by Sparrow on May 2, 2013 13:36:09 GMT -5
Rem was one of the people who experimented on Tessla. She was complicit in bringing about the death of an innocent new life. People often excuse past wrongdoing by choosing to perpetuate their actions in the future. Rem could have denied doing wrong in Tessla's case, and have treated Vash and Knives as "other than human" to preserve her own sense of self-worth. Instead, she admits her wrongdoing and becomes a mother figure to Vash and Knives, caring for them. I have to admit that Rem (and Vash's) deadly mistakes were really something that initially bothered me about the manga. The anime characterization was so well-established in my mind that I just couldn't imagine the pure, loving Rem Saverem doing or being complicit to such a terrible act, even if by her own admission she had made mistakes in her past (the anime doesn't tell us what kind of mistakes she made, but they're most likely not on par with that). But then over the years I thought about it some more, and I can now say that I have an enormous amount of respect for the manga for including those scenes. The anime kept things "simple" (but still wonderfully effective) to an extent due to time constraints, but the manga was long enough that it was able to attach a more complex rationale to the ideas of Love and Peace, the blank ticket to the future, etc. These ideas are powerful and appealing specifically because they offer hope to those who have done terrible things in/with their lives. What Rem did was horrible -- and human. As most people in her position would have done, she chose to do what was easy instead of what was right. But instead of allowing her guilty conscience to deny her mistake or decide that there was no hope for her to ever be a good person again, she moved on with the knowledge that she could still pursue goodness and rectify -- if not ever truly "make up for" -- her past wrongdoing. She remembers and values the past, but looks towards the future with the knowledge that she can do better this time. It's the same with Vash. He fell into depression after seeing what happened to Tessla, decided he hated humans (and Rem), and tried to kill her after she wouldn't let him kill himself. On its face, it sounds horrible, but his actions also make sense. He was a child who felt frightened, betrayed, and desperate. After he realizes the terrible mistake he made, Rem clarifies for him further: "Even if you're in darkness now... that ticket in your hand is just waiting to be filled in. So don't ever let go! Don't say that you'll die!" It's a message that I personally found very powerful. Vash doesn't preach Love and Peace out of any misguided or naive sentiments, but because he's been in that dark place of violence/despair and he knows there's a way out and wants to share that knowledge with others. (Of course it doesn't change the fact that he's a MASSIVE HYPOCRITE because he still won't extend forgiveness to himself for July, but that's part of what makes him such an interesting protagonist. Jeredu calling him an "atoner" who feels he's had "too much blood on his hands to ever make up for it" is very appropriate.) Like I said, all these same themes are in the anime, but they do seem more intense in the manga.
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karaii
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Post by karaii on May 2, 2013 15:06:12 GMT -5
On the subject of Rem, I also prefer the manga's interpretation. In the anime, she was too pristine. Unbelievable, in some ways. Like Vash had sugar-coated her memory to an impossible-to-attain perfection that would always "haunt" him because he was already in a position lower than her. She was a God-like figure and not a human one.
In the comics, however, she was already a sinner. Like most of humanity, she was not infallible to failure. But she got herself together, promised never to do it again, and did so by raising Vash and Knives to the best of her ability, hidden away from the crew members because she did not want them to suffer as Tesla had. Even when the twins tried to starve themselves to death, even when Vash tried to kill himself, she was upfront about her mistakes and told them to hang on, to keep going, because life's ticket is always blank, and you can ALWAYS atone for what you've done, in some manner.
Vash got the message after a drastic attempt to kill Rem. Knives got the message 150 years and several billion deaths after. But they both did, eventually, and akin to the catholic ideals the manga touts, they were both redeemed.
Rem's sins also come close to me because I am a neuroscientist-in-training who has experimented on animals, and will do so again for her thesis. I have discussed the bioethics of this with my classmates, my teachers, my family. In the end, you cannot be pristine. Justifying the ends by the means is a road peppered with gross misdeeds. Justifying the means with good intentions downs a similar path, eventually.
But you can certainly try your best to be decent and treat every living thing well, regardless of profession. Do everything in your life with kindness and decency, to the best of your ability. For what are you living for? Pursuit it with relish but also with knowledge of those around you. If you falter or fail, do not punish yourself mindlessly -- seek to atone your error and learn something from the experience. The ticket to the future is always blank!
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yoshi
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Post by yoshi on May 3, 2013 0:56:24 GMT -5
i've always really liked one particular scene involving rem, where she describes her dream about the train to vash, and it shows just for a panel how she'd wake up afterward to a disaster of a house, and you can imagine it must be late afternoon and she's slept the day away because she's so far down
not only did she make a terrible mistake in not speaking up while tessla was tortured to death, but even before that she'd lost a dear friend/lover and probably spent months wasting away in her apartment alone. she is SUCH a strong person and the fact that she managed to gather herself up after hitting rock bottom TWICE and continued to look to the future with hope and reason is just so fantastic
she has had hard times and she knows she's done wrong. she sits the boys down and explains exactly what happened, she acknowledges these are facts of the past they're not going to change; all she can do is make the most of her life as it is now and try to do good in order to make the future better for others
bad stuff happens and that's okay. all we can really do is look forward and try our best anyway. uwu
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Post by fantardism on May 3, 2013 9:08:03 GMT -5
i've always really liked one particular scene involving rem, where she describes her dream about the train to vash, and it shows just for a panel how she'd wake up afterward to a disaster of a house, and you can imagine it must be late afternoon and she's slept the day away because she's so far down Also, empty bottles everywhere :( Love that chapter so much.
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